From Legislation to Landmark Projects: How the New York City DDC is Doing Design-Build Right

In just 22 months, New York City delivered its first design-build project — during a global pandemic — and the impact is already being felt nationwide. In this episode of the Design-Build Delivers Podcast, we talk about the Queens Borough Hall Garage and Community Center, a state-of-the-art project that's now up for major awards, including DBIA Project/Team Awards. We also explore how NYC’s design-build successes are influencing other states and local governments.

Join host Erin Looney, along with Tom Foley and David Varoli from New York City’s Department of Design and Construction, and Richard Thomas from DBIA, as they break down the challenges and triumphs of NYC’s design-build journey — and what it means for the future of project delivery across the U.S.

And don’t miss the Bonus Content Episode, coming in a few weeks, with even more insights from this conversation.

Guests:

Tom Foley, PE, CCM, DBIA
Commissioner, NYC Department of Design and Construction/National Board Member of DBIA

David Varoli, Esq., DBIA
Deputy Commissioner for Legal Affairs and General Counsel, New York City Department of Design and Construction

Richard Thomas
Director of State/Local Legislative Affairs, DBIA

Access all our free design-build resources and learn more about Design-Build Done Right® at dbia.org.

DBIA members are shaping the future, one successful collaboration at a time.

Chapters

• 0:07 New York’s Design-Build Journey Begins
• 2:28 Building Momentum From Statehouse to City Streets
• 5:09 Queens Borough Hall: A Design-Build First
• 8:17 True Collaboration in Action
• 11:31 Best Practices Lead Lessons Learned
• 16:21 Breaking Down Barriers (And Buildings)
• 21:18 A Lawyer’s View: Navigating Spaghetti Streets
• 26:27 Successful Recipes for the Community
• 30:47 No Fear of the Unknown
• 32:49 Wild Speculation: Design-Build Legislation’s Next Big Move

Transcript

00:00

Music.

Erin Looney  00:07

New York City is no stranger to changing a paradigm, and design build is no exception. The city's inaugural design build project didn't just meet expectations. It's become a model for future projects and legislation across the country in their first design build project, the New York City Department of Design and Construction delivered a state of the art garage and community center in just 22 months during a pandemic, no less. But the city's journey with design build goes beyond that one project. It is setting a path for other states and local governments across the nation to follow. I am Aaron Looney, and this is the design build delivers podcast sponsored by us, CAD and our cons company. Quick disclaimer, it is 100% a coincidence that we're celebrating New York in this month's episode of the design build delivers podcast despite what's happening in the world series, we are not taking sides. We are not choosing coasts. We are just here to talk about design, build. Now. That disclaimer doesn't apply to at least two of our guests, who know full well where their baseball loyalties lie. Welcome to the show. Tom Foley and David vero Lee from New York City's Department of Design and Construction, along with Richard Thomas from DBIA, we are going to explore how New York's experience can guide the future of design, build, legislation and project delivery across the country, and I'm going to do something a little different this time, lads, why don't you introduce yourselves? My

Tom Foley  01:28

name is Tom Foley. I am the Commissioner of New York City's Department of Design and Construction. We're an amazing team of 1200 who literally build cool things throughout New York City. 

David Varoli  01:40

My name is David varoi. I'm the Deputy Commissioner and General Counsel for the New York City Department of Design and Construction, and I get to work with someone like Tom as a leader. So every day is a cool day for me.

Richard Thomas  01:53

I'm Richard Thomas. I'm director of state local legislative affairs for DBIA. It's my job to try to expand design build authority and try to codify design build best practices so

Erin Looney  02:08

you all have nice, succinct introductions, but I do have to ask Tom and David, do you two owe each other money? Because that was a lot of back patting you did for one another. I quite liked

Tom Foley  02:16

it. No, we don't. This is, this is how we roll. We would not be on a serious note. We would not be in a position we are at DDC as an agency leading the way. Without David and his and his amazing team,

Erin Looney  02:28

we will be talking a lot today in this episode about the current and future status of design build in New York City. But just to get an idea of how far your department and the city have come, can you give us a brief overview of the design, build legislation impacting the city from 2018 2019, period to where we are now,

David Varoli  02:47

even though New York City is probably got the third largest budget in the country, we're a municipality, and as a municipality, we are a creature of the state, and so for we want to do something, or we want to make A change, we actually need to get the state's permission. So in 2000 and actually 16, we started working with Richard and others to campaign and advocate at the state level to give us the opportunity to use design build. We had seen what was happening across the country, if not across the world, where design build was really taking off and doing some amazing things, and here we are in this amazing, incredible city, and we were restricted to just literally using 99% of the time design, bid build. And so we went up to Albany, and it took a little while to explain and for them to get comfortable and understand what this alternative project delivery method looked like. But we got successful. And in 2018 a law was passed that allowed New York City, specifically the Department of Design and Construction and two of our colleague agencies, Department of Transportation and the New York City Housing Authority, to use design build on three specific projects for us at DDC, I'll use our acronym, was to build something called the borough based jail program, where We were going to be building four new correctional facilities in the individual boroughs in New York City in 2019 we went back up to Albany, and we asked Albany to give us a broader authorization to allow us to use design build, not just for these identified discrete projects, but to actually use them on projects across The board, we have a lot of great and amazing civic buildings that need either renovations or additions, or we have a need for a completely brand new building, as well as a lot of infrastructure needs. And so again, we were very successful in getting the expansion of using design build in 2019 as well as expanding it to other agencies. Then in 2022 because our laws typically have sunset provisions, meaning they're going to expire, we have to go back up to Albany and ask for an extension. And we were successful. We got a five year extension, and we also were able to add another city agency, the Department of citywide administrative services, and they're in charge of the city. Is incredible solar program, and they have really just been running since getting the authorization using design build to start retrofitting cities buildings with solar.

Erin Looney  05:09

New York City's first design build project, the Queensborough Hall municipal garage and community space, was completed in 22 months. That's incredibly fast timeline, and it's already been named a DBIA merit award winner and won the project of the year for New York and New Jersey from the Construction Management Association of America. So let's spend some time talking about that clearly successful project. First. What made this the ideal project for design build,

Tom Foley  05:37

as David had pointed out when we as in New York City. Were first authorized with design build the Queensborough Hall garage and community space was part of what we would call an early works to close Rikers Island and build four state of the art brand new facilities for our partners at Department of Corrections. We had to then build a garage and community center for the community, and it's adjacent to what will be ultimately at the new borough based jails in Queens. We wanted to start with a project that was manageable as part of our early works. This was a new build, so it checked off all those boxes, fully funded at $82 million we went out and followed DBIA best practices. We shortlisted to three firms. We had our stipends which would cover a lot of the associated costs for the teams. You know, that was mandated and that was included as part of our contract. We have a brand new contract. We're sharing in the risk with the industry. We're not kicking the can to the controller office for claims from five years from now, we have dispute resolution. Parallel to this, we were also setting up our internal team that was going to be effectively managing the borobus jails program. We ensured that everybody was trained along with our sponsor agencies, and that's no easy feat. We wanted everybody to be aware of what this new contract vehicle would look like, so that when we met with the industry, and we were hearing from them, what should be part of our new contract, what shouldn't be included in it, that literally, we were up to speed with the latest contracts and what was being done throughout the country and how we could replicate that. Why, you know, we need to do lessons learned, even before we started with the Queen's garage, very, very successful project. As you had noted, it's an award winner to have an $82 million project completing 22 months design and construction during COVID. It's a huge feat. It's the city's first design build, and I'm extremely proud of what my team was able to accomplish

Erin Looney  07:39

before we move on. I want to quickly plug that it has the chance to be a bigger award winner. November 7, at the DBIA Design Build Conference in Expo in Dallas, we have our award ceremony. And like I said, it's a merit winner, and that means it's up for potentially some other awards. So just kind of throwing out the possibility, hopefully we'll see you there.

Tom Foley  07:59

I will be there. I'll be on the stage. I'll be there with David Broly and Evie McEvoy, our assistant commissioner for design build. And so I'm looking forward to being up on the stage. And you know, I'm just extremely proud of how far we've come in such a short duration of time. You know, we have miles to go before we sleep, but we're certainly off to a great start.

Erin Looney  08:17

I'd say that's a fair assessment. So now talk a little bit more about the role of collaboration in maintaining that tight timeline with this project and still making sure the results were high quality.

Tom Foley  08:29

Our teams were embedded together over at the project site, over at the Queen's garage not far from LaGuardia Airport. The teams were literally huddled together there in the same trailers, and again, we follow best practices. We have our teams that are working together with our designer, with our contractor. This is designed by Jonathan Marvel out in New York City. Hunter Roberts was our contractor. You know, part of that collaboration was what we were looking for from a city standpoint, as far as budget, schedule, what was some of the amenities that we could get, as far as solar, green roof and things like that above and beyond, to have that out there and then have the teams come back to us and say, these are some of the other things that we could provide as part of the scope of the project. That was eye opening for us. We were used to a low bid system here in New York City that dates back over 100 years. All of our professional services are quality based, but on the low bid contract. We design beautiful buildings, and then we put it out to the low bidder. And it is a problem when you open that envelope up, or the bids in front everybody, and you find out who that vendor is, because a lot of times you already know it's going to go to litigation. You already know it's going to go to contract claims, and it's not going to be done for a good five, seven years from now. Obviously, a lot of scars from those experiences. So we came with true collaboration, trust, partnership, and those aren't just words. When an issue came up at the field, we were out there, it's not fair to the to obviously our teams to to change design. At the 11th hour, as an owner, I was pushing back as much as possible, whether that was elected officials, sponsor agencies and things like that. That's my job. Insulate the team as much as possible, let them be successful out at the drawing table and in the field. But when there weren't changes and they made sense, such as bringing in additional EV chargers that could be installed after the project had started, we then literally went out into the field, had those conversations together, and then determined how we could manage the work while not skipping a beat. Part of the lessons learned was meeting out there, that collaboration, if things were to change from a design standpoint, ensuring that we're all on the same page, working with them and with the private utilities to make sure that was capacity within the grid system, making sure that the permits were forthcoming from Department of Buildings, Fire Department and others, that's my job, and keeping that open communication is so, so important.

Erin Looney  10:57

Are you interested in sustainable design and construction practices, but concern about profitability. Us, CAD, an arkons company helps forward thinking. ENR, top ranked AEC firms in mitigating risk and driving profit through digitalization, using Autodesk AEC technology to learn more. Contact Us, cad.com/dbia for a free 30 minute consultation. That's us, cad.com/dbia so I'm happy to take you out of the hot seat, Tom, but you, you're also welcome to stay there. You talked a little about lessons learned. So to both of you, you and David, what is, what's the learning curve like on this project, especially with it being the first under the new design build legislation?

David Varoli  11:47

It's a really great question. Aaron and you heard Tom say it, and it really does come down to the people going from, as Tom's mentioned, 100 years of doing this low bid, very adversarial process. This ability of having the collaboration and integrated project, these were just not words. This was the reality. Everybody was in the room that needed to be in the room. And then taking a tool like design build, where and again, this, to me, is the greatest advertisement for DBIA. We took the design build done right principles, and we followed them as closely as we could, within our confines of our laws. And by using the design build done right principles, inserting that in our contract documents, our procurement documents, as well as in our training, we were able to as issues arose, address them, and so it wasn't as extreme as it might have sounded, even though this was our first project, because we didn't just say, Hey, we're going to now do this project. There was so much work that was done before we ever actually even awarded or went through the procurement to bring on the team. So we learned as we were going along, and then we continue to learn. And we never stopped learning. And to this day again, having Tom's leadership, having Evie his leadership, who oversees our design build unit, Eduardo delavav, who also oversees our borough based jail design build program, they are literally there as showing the leadership of saying, hey, as things are happening, we're gonna continue to change like this is not meant to be a static program. It's not a static contract. And I think that's one of the great hallmarks of really good design build program. So

Erin Looney  13:30

looking at some of the learning curve, some of the lessons that you took away from the Queensborough Hall project, which of those, some of them, I'm sure are informing or will inform future design build efforts in your department, and perhaps others. We

Tom Foley  13:43

had started up with our borough based jails program the early works, and parallel with that, we were starting up our pilot programs within the rest of the agency. We were able to use stipends within our borough based jails program, because of the complexity, because of the high dollar amount of the overall program, approaching $15 billion yes, that's right, $15 billion but on a normal program, we had smaller projects. We had projects like the Marlborough greenhouse at $15 million we were following best practices, but then we did get a lot of pushback internally within city government as far as why pay a stipend. A quote was, why are you paying a stipend to a loser? We had to go out with three or four of our initial projects without a stipend. We then relaxed some of the requirements there. But this is something that was an immediate lesson learned. We learned what worked, obviously, with the Queen's garage and now all standard practices. I will not be accepting a project on behalf of the agency, unless we have a stipend, unless it fits into what makes the most sense for a design build project. We want it to be new build. We have $33 billion worth of work that's at the design table or out in the construction site now. So it really has to be a perfect match for us to utilize design build and. We want to ensure that our end user that they know what they want. It's not up to our design build team to try to coax that out of them. That's not fair. That's me transferring the risk over to a design build team. We want to make sure that all of our ducks are a row, that we're setting ourselves up for success with an amazing partner. So now we're looking at shortlisting the three firms where we're then having stipends and our CDMS for the Queens garage Community Center. We had three CDMS with each of the three shortlisted firms. We then started moving away from that because we were working on other complex recreational centers that cost of which was or the budget of which exceeded $100 million for these projects. We then took a look when we said, Why are we having six to eight, nine CDMS, these confidential dialog meetings, collaborative dialog meetings. Call them what you will, but what's the purpose of those? Because at the time, we were transferring not risk, but time. Time is money. So a lot of the firms, specifically the design firms, that were participating in some of our early pilots, it was a lot of time for them. Now, when we are going out there, we're only having three or four CDMS on each of our projects. So we saw what worked there. We're always listening to the industry, and we're pivoting when necessary. You

Erin Looney  16:21

said $33 billion out there in the works, and now that you have queens borough, and it was obviously hit it out of the park with that. What else do you see now on the horizon, in terms of projects that that success right there made possible? What's coming up next?

Tom Foley  16:40

We had three existing detention centers, three existing jails, one in Brooklyn, one in Queens and one in Manhattan, that have been up for over 5075, years that needed to be dismantled in order to basically build the new jails. We heard from the industry that the new design build teams wanted to come in with literally a clean slate, a clean canvas. We went out onto the street to the industry for using design, build, for dismantle, and it's been very, very, very successful. We've had the experience of working on dismantle projects, on the design, bid, build, extremely lengthy process. But I think this is something that was a surprise to me at how efficient and true collaboration during that dismantle process would be. All of these were all exceeding our MWBE goals. On every single one of our early works on our Queens garage were exceeding 40% MWBE usage. Our standard is 30% these aren't just goals. These are something that we mandate and that we follow up through. We have some lessons learned on that as well that we've incorporated. And we also have a pilot program consisting of 14 projects which are a combined budget of over $1 billion out of those 14 projects, we have nine that are currently active, and these range for agencies, for department environmental protection, New York City Parks and New York City Department of Transportation. So exciting days ahead.

David Varoli  18:09

So on the WNBA goals, this is something that Tom created and instituted, and we've now carried across from our borough based jail program with the early works into our regular, what we're calling the non borough based jail stuff that's under Evie his leadership. And this is, again, to me, one of those just great hallmarks of design build that we didn't even really know, even though we had done so much research, and again, working so greatly and closely with DBIA, is we set up quarterly meetings with the design builder. Wasn't at a low level, is that a very high level? And these quarterly meetings were to go over their MWBE goals, but not just where they were in their goals on the design side as well as the construction side, we also set up the meeting for two parts. The first part was, okay, where are you and your goals? What are the challenges? What are the impediments? Why aren't you able to reach it now? Or when do you think you're going to be able to reach it? So there was a real time monitoring every three months. But then the other piece, Tom and I just came from an industry day, and in that he basically told the industry, we're here to make sure you get paid. And so the second part of this quarterly meeting is, okay, great. You're meeting the goals, and as Tom said, we're exceeding those goals. Well, where exactly are you, in terms of the money? Where is the money, and how is it being distributed? To the MWS, we were able to really have this collaborative relationship, partnership with the design builder. This is something we never could do in our low bid contracts. So it was a really an exciting pivot point that we discovered and that we've carried on as a best practice through the rest of our design build program. Richard

Erin Looney  19:45

listening to what Tom and David said about MWBE opportunities, and that 40% That's huge, that's big. What does the rest of the country look like, and what can they learn around the state and local level from. New York City,

Richard Thomas  20:00

it's critically important even in passage of legislation. In fact, when we were working on the legislation in Illinois, having local participation and MWBE participation was more important to a lot of legislators than even some of the general procurement issues that we talk about, because for a lot of these elected officials, they don't work in the same world. They don't know all the best practices, but they think that they is critically important to them is they want to know that when these projects are built in their district, that local firms, particularly small firms, and those at disadvantaged businesses, are able to participate, so

Erin Looney  20:43

you are seeing that as a big part of the conversation around the rest of the country. Oh, absolutely

Richard Thomas  20:47

great. We would not be able to pass legislation in a lot of places if this issue isn't addressed head on.

Erin Looney  20:55

Well, I'm glad we've got New York City's 40% number to use as a catalyst when you're out and about, right? Well, I

Richard Thomas  21:03

think the thing that's amazing too, and I, and I really give correct to these folks, is a lot of folks said, Oh, this couldn't be done. A lot of industry folks said this couldn't be done. And and I think we've proven them wrong at just about every juncture here, and

Erin Looney  21:18

that's what we do here at DBIA. We prove the people wrong. Let's make a little bit of a pivot to the legal side of things. David, this is, of course, your specialty New York City's urban environment, which we know is New York City is like the urban environment. It presents unique challenges in terms of the legal side of things. The frameworks around design, building the legal space, of course, are still evolving as the legislation continues to evolve, and with some unique hurdles in urban places like New York City, so beyond contracts and beyond trying to, you know, keep the balls spinning in the legal space. What are some of the other legal challenges and regulatory hurdles that you've encountered when implementing the project. How have you navigated those I'm

David Varoli  22:03

going to say it's a work in progress. There's a lot of stuff that goes on inside the city of New York and any city. If you're looking at the horizontal space, the streets, the roadways, the sidewalks or the highways, Tom's an engineer. I'm just a lawyer. And when I look at some of the photos, or when I'm walking by a street and I see the street is then opened up, in my mind, it looks like spaghetti, not the kind of spaghetti I want to eat, but it looks like spaghetti that, in itself, is one of the greatest urban challenges that are faced in any project with any project delivery method, and where I think the design builds both in The contract, but also in just the practices, gives us the best chance to work closely with the utility companies, as well as then the city owned utilities of the water mains and the sewers, where we can work together in the project, as it's happening, without all the claims disputes and work just stopping talk to anybody, they'll always say, oh, you know those government projects like work starts and then stalls and nothing happens for days, weeks or sometimes months or even longer. We think we're seeing this now in the design build space with a very workable contract document. These projects are not just stalling that when these issues are arising, when this dense urban environment, and you've got pipes and wires and tubes growing over each other, the contracts allowing us to deal with this in real time and not stopping them, which, the end of the day, we're doing this for the community, the residents and the businesses that live and want to work here in New York City, and nobody wants to be on a street that there's it's either got those metal plates on it or it looks like a construction zone for for 10 plus years.

Erin Looney  23:47

So back to you, Tom managing these large scale projects. And what David just described sounds like large scale might not be the right word. It sounds like epic scale might be more likely the way to look at it, with managing these projects in New York City, you must have had to make some significant shifts in process. You touched on this a little bit when you talked about Queensborough. How has the culture around project management evolved? And what advice would you give to other cities looking to adopt design, build and then Richard, you can take notes and use that when you go to those other cities. Training

Tom Foley  24:22

is key. It's a new mindset for what's possible. And you do need those early successes out of the gate. You do, as Richard had pointed out earlier, you do need to prove people wrong. That is still our mantra here at DDC, let them know what's possible, and by having those early successes at Queensborough Hall, at Shirley, Chisholm, a project that we broke ground in two and a half years ago and a year from now, 100 and $30 million recreational center in a dense urban environment, there's a community space, a high school competition swimming pool. All these things, these amenities that we're providing to the community Orchard Beach up in the Bronx, but it's so important to have a champion within the group that's David and others, from a DDC standpoint, because it's very easy to sit back and pontificate about the world and say, What could be better, or will was, or whatever it is, but it really takes action. It takes ownership, and it definitely needs the champions and that we're all on the same page. It takes the champions that are out in the field to deliver those within our finance, we're extremely blessed with having our an amazing CFO, Rachel laser, who is certified in or taking the training for design build. David, obviously. So that way there's people helping out in the office to be able to fight and advocate for high percentage of stipends. So all these things are required in the kitchen in order to make sure that that meal is ready for everybody. And it's also about getting the boots on. This is something that we're very serious about here, that we go out to these sites on a monthly basis, senior leadership, to visit the sites, to meet with the contractors, meet with the iron workers, the foreman, the Masons, what's working, what's not? Go out to the plants where things are being fabricated. Meet with the designer at the design tables. It's not only in design build that that works. We're using it across our portfolio. But obviously having the contract the way that it's written certainly makes it easier on the design build contracts.

Erin Looney  26:27

I really like the use of the meal metaphor. You were just talking about the people working in the kitchen. You were talking about putting the meal together, and on the other end of that are the people who are going to eat it, which are in this metaphor, the people in the New York City communities that these projects are serving when they're finished. So how did you and how do you inform and engage those communities about why this project being done this way? I'm sure you don't get into the nuts and bolts is going to be better for them, and what strategies helped ensure transparency and community support.

Tom Foley  27:01

It's very important early on to get that community buy in, not just to be present at a meeting, but to listen, to listen to what they want from this building, whether this is a community center, whether it's a new pool, whether it's an animal shelter, whether it's a community space within a jail or in a police precinct. What are their expectations? How would they appreciate the layout, the cladding of the building, whether there's street plantings and landscaping and all that materials to be used and to incorporate that into our RFP is very, very important, so to hear from the community early on to let them know that this is a design build that we're not going to be talking about this design for seven years and then being out in the construction for four but we're actually going to be delivering this to them within three years, $130 million building, from breaking ground to cutting a ribbon. These are the things that are possible through design, build and to have state of the art facility. Technology is changing so fast that we need our contractors, our vendors and our builders to work hand in hand with the designers to figure out what's real, what's available, get on the latest trends incorporated in that into the design, and do those early works. There's nothing like being out in the field with the community members when the contractor breaks ground, when they only started the design three months ago. So when they see that transformation of the neighborhood, how we're changing the fabric of the city, literally one brick at a time, that's what brings people to the table and buy in. We need your recommendations early on, and that way it can be incorporated. Come early. Let your voice be heard. We're listening. Make sure that you have your voice heard early so that way it could be part of that amazing new facility, Richard,

Erin Looney  28:54

if you were building on what Tom had to say about community support and managing processes in design. Build, how do his insights compare to other state and local programs you've seen across the US? And what key elements should these other cities and states prioritize when they're adopting design? Build,

Richard Thomas  29:13

I think New York City has done an amazing job, both in terms of the quality of the authority that they have the bill itself. Words matter. But also, I think just the legislative process that they've gone through, they did their homework at the beginning, which I think is really important, and I think it helped having their authority maybe a little staggered. So they they learned as they were going through the process. They took a long term approach. I mean, we see a lot of owners, well, we got this one project. It's all looking at that project. You're not looking beyond. They came into this knowing that this is something that they wanted to do long term. They took the training serious, which I think was essential, and they did it as you heard both Tom and David. I mean, they really did a lot of outreach in the community. That's really important. I think that's part of the reason why progressive is something that they've wanted to to get over the finish line here is when you're dealing with so many stakeholders, and every single project that's going to be done in New York is going to have an enormous amount of stakeholders just going through that process, progressive is going to lend itself better to that and and they've been just very deliberate and transparent about what they're trying to do and what they're trying to accomplish. And I think that's really important. A lot of local governments have not done the design build project, or maybe they've done one or two. So this really gives, kind of puts, kind of a template out there for local governments that what we can do as

Erin Looney  30:47

design build expands across the country. What are some of the common misconceptions that states and municipalities have about adopting the method and how can they best overcome these challenges to capitalize on design builds potential? We heard a little bit of a hint in what Tom and David have been saying. So what are you seeing everywhere else?

Richard Thomas  31:08

Actually, I don't want to say really myths or misconceptions, but more concerns. Probably the biggest one is local and MWBE participation. I think a lot of folks think, Well, geez, they see these big design build projects and they're thinking, well, there's no place for us in this project. And I think that is something that time and time again, that we found that, in fact, on design build projects, we generally get better local participation than we do on your traditional low bid projects, some of the issues out there are, are we really going to get a low price? How does this best value work? How does progressive work? And also, there's sometimes doubts on whether their staff is up to doing this. The good news is, though, I really think the passage of the federal infrastructure bill has really kind of exposed this issue. Is with all this influx of dollars, some local governments have had no choice what to seek alternative delivery, like design build, and what they have found is that the key is really the training. If you can coach your your folks up so they can learn this. Because, you know, these are smart people, these are architects, these are engineers. They can learn so we find that if they're able to use those best practices that we've laid out, if they get the training, as we've heard everybody recommend, they're going to have a good result in their project. I really think the biggest fear is fear of the unknown. It's taking that first step to use design build to do that first project.

Erin Looney  32:49

So this moves us nicely into this episode's wild speculation about the future. What does the future of design build at the state and local level look like based on what you have done well in your journey in New York City, and how do you want that experience to expand to the rest of the country?

Tom Foley  33:11

I think it's very important to see what's possible using design build. It really changes the dialog, not only for a public owner, but for the industry, for the engineering firms, for the design firms, where there was pushback from design organizations five years ago about design build and that now, when we're sending out a procurement, we literally have the best designers that are coming to partner with us, because we listen to what they would like to be in part of the contract. We listen to the builders. One of the things that really took me by surprise. I always knew was going to be successful model for using it on projects. What I did not realize is how it empowers our staff. Our project managers are out in the field each and every day, boots on the ground, and they were always hearing about how long it may take to deliver a community center, resiliency project, or a program, an animal shelter, and here they are with this new tool, and I certainly give them the permission slip to make the decisions That's key in design, build, making sure you have ownership out in the field, but what they see going on there, day to day, and that empowerment that it gives them, because they were always told that what's possible and what's not that changing the dialog, they're also changing the city, and that's why they're working for DDC, so that way they can make that positive change each and every day certainly has a great future here for New York City. There's so much work, obviously, a lot more to be done, and design build certainly has a home here. David, your

David Varoli  34:43

take on that, as you can imagine, nobody really likes change. People fear change as part of the listening tour that we started shortly after 2018 and when the law was passed, we heard that fear, because, again, people were so used to doing it one way, and now. Here we are introducing this whole new concept that's going to require new procurement, new approach to procurement. Tom mentioned earlier, the CDMS. I cannot tell you how invigorating and how exciting the CDMS are. I have seen firsthand how much information is actually going back and forth between the owner a New York City Department design and construction and the shortlisted design builders DBIA was so right when they talked about the importance of the stipend, but also the importance of the short list. And so getting three different design builders talking to you about your needs your project has been just an absolutely incredible learning experience. And that, to me, I think, is the big message for New York City, New York State, and across the nation, and as again, someone who has now been in government for over three decades, and I'm a big movie watcher buff. I'm a big reader of books in history. I'm reminded of John Glenn's quote, which I believe was said by Steve Buscemi, an actor who used to be a New York City Fire Department member. It's amazing. I just realized, you know, we're sitting on a machine with a million parts, all built by the lowest bidder. Earlier, Aaron, you talked about, or asked the question about the urban environment. I don't care if you're in New York City. I don't care if you're in somewhere in the Midwest or someone on the west coast, the world has changed so much, and there's so much that is happening, and we're all now looking at projects that maybe 10 years ago, we were not thinking of resiliency. We were not thinking of that this project needs to be able to sustain 100 year storm, because we're now seeing 100 year storms every other year. The ability of having design build as the project delivery method allows us to work hand in hand, and as Tom mentioned earlier, the collaboration, how important that is. It is allowing us to take advantage of what is happening today that we're not being locked in, you know, in the design bid build world. The design is done that could take anywhere from a year to three plus years. You then take that design, you then go bid it, and you bid it to someone who's going to be the lowest bidder, and they're now taking that design and they're going to build it well. In that period of time, something has changed. Technology has changed. Another storm has evolved, and we now see there's going to be a new pattern of storms coming, whether it's microburst, whether it's tornadoes, if you're in the Midwest, or the horrific back to back storms that just hit Florida and the Carolinas. Design Build is that vehicle that will allow public owners, as well as private owners, to build things with quality and the comment that Glenn made on the moon, we don't want to deal with the low bidder. There's many different aspects to the beauty of this program, but one of them is you're really selecting based on quality, quality of the team, this integrated team of the designer and the contractor. So that, to me, is sort of the message from the New York experiment, and then I'll go back to my opening comments. It really comes down to people, and if you have the right leadership, and I've been incredibly lucky as the attorney here for this agency to have a leader like Tom to say, hey, wait a minute, there is a better way. Erin, you'd mentioned the an analogy to food, to go back to the kitchen and say, Hey, we could maybe make this dish a different way, and maybe it's actually going to come out even better when you are doing such a dramatic pivot, to have the leadership to say, Okay, we're going to do this, but we're going to do it the right way. That is really going to be the biggest lesson hopefully other public owners are going to take and then I'll just pick up lastly, on Rich's comment the other night when the Yankees won their game, Anthony Rizzo was being interviewed, and he said something that a lot of people don't always associate with anything they see in terms of the end result. But Rizzo said this. He said, Yeah, what you saw in the field today, there was so much work that was going on before I ever stepped up to that plate. Well, we're taking we're seeing that, and we're bringing it over to the built environment. We spent a lot of time before we ever went out onto the street with a procurement and I think that investment in time, and also the investment in our people through the training has really, again, been another hallmark. It's an opportunity to change mindsets, opportunity to change cultures, and then to really have these end result projects. I mean, the Queen's garage, and I know this isn't Dancing with the Stars, where people get to call in and vote, though, I think DBIA should change their rules and allow people to vote that way. I really think that project in the urban environment of New York City, where there were so many naysayers, and for us to deliver it, because it's not just a garage, it's a community space, plus a garage in 22 months, it's just absolutely dramatic, earth shattering, and is just an example of what we can achieve when given the right tools like design build.

Erin Looney  39:58

I guess we'll just have to see. A couple weeks, won't we

David Varoli  40:02

still think you should do the voting? Come on.

Erin Looney  40:04

I'll ask Lisa, please. She likes the idea. I'm going to take credit for it. If she doesn't.

David Varoli  40:12

That's what a lawyer is for, right? Everybody hates a lawyer until it's their lawyer.

Erin Looney  40:16

Look, we're all for change here at DBIA. There's no fear from us, but for the time being, at least no Dancing with the Stars style voting our awards jury, however, works hard to choose the project and team award winners, so you'll still want to keep an eye on Queensborough Hall, garage and Community Center at the DBIA Design Build Conference in Expo November 7 in Dallas. It's up for some big awards, along with other standout, merit award winning projects, and follow the design build delivers blog for updates on state and local legislation. Where you are, maybe the New York City Department of Design and constructions approach influenced those bills, or maybe your state is also setting a new precedent for design build legislation. A big thank you to Richard Thomas Tom Foley and David varouli for joining me today, and to Fred Yi for keeping this episode in top shape. And of course, thanks to all of you for listening. You can find all design build delivers episodes, including our bonus content episodes on your favorite podcast app. And last, but certainly not least, thank you to our sponsor, us, CAD and our cons company for making this episode and all our design build delivers podcast episodes possible. Learn more at us, cad.com/dbia