“It’s Still Painted the Wrong Color”: Lisa Washington and Virginia McAllister on Collaboration, Risk and 2026

Each year, the Design-Build Delivers Podcast chats with ED/CEO Lisa Washington, CAE, and DBIA’s new National Board Chair about what’s ahead for the industry.

In this episode, Washington and host Erin Looney are joined by 2026 National Board Chair Virginia McAllister for a forward-looking conversation on collaboration, risk and the priorities shaping design-build in the coming year. Together, they explore what’s driving continued growth in the delivery method, where teams tend to struggle and how education and shared understanding remain essential as design-build expands.

The discussion also touches on how DBIA is evolving to meet the moment, from expanded access to resources and membership to new and updated education designed to support owners and practitioners navigating design-build for the first — or fiftieth — time.

Access all our free design-build resources and learn more about Design-Build Done Right® at dbia.org.

DBIA members are shaping the future, one successful collaboration at a time. 

Transcript

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Erin Looney  00:00

welcome to 2026 and welcome back to the design build delivers podcast brought to you by ARKANCE, an Autodesk, Platinum Partner, I am your host. Aaron Looney from the design build delivers podcast studio at the DBIA national headquarters in DC. Now, early in the show, you'll hear me mention that we're in a new studio, but it's more like an improved studio. Look for some changes to how the show sounds and how it looks. Yes, looks as in. Maybe video might be coming soon. And if you're in DC and you're at the DBIA office. Stop by. We'll give you a tour, but maybe give us some grace if we're not quite finished yet. This isn't a design build project, so we're kind of taking our time. It's just some plants, some new lights, some new equipment that makes this show sound better and makes it more entertaining for you. Now, this month's episode is one we do every year. I am joined by DBIA Executive Director and CEO Lisa Washington, along with Virginia McAllister, who's officially stepped into her role as dbias 2026, national board chair. This is a look ahead at what the coming year holds for design, build and for DBIA, like where the momentum is, where the risks are, and what we're focused on as the delivery method continues to grow. Virginia also happens to be a great storyteller, which means these big picture ideas come with some detailed and sometimes entertaining examples of how projects succeed or struggle, depending on how collaboration, trust and education show up in practice. So let's get into it before we really get into the questions. I do want to say, welcome to the new DBIA podcast studio. The design build delivers space that you'll see change over the course of the next few months. We've got some plans, and we're looking forward to seeing how that looks. And speaking of plans, that's why I have both of you here today. We're going to talk about a lot of things. Having you both here is wonderful, because the perspectives that you bring to this conversation are a little bit different. We've got the executive director, CEO of DBIA, and we've got the chair of the DBIA national board. I mean, I can't do much better than that. So thank you for being here first of all. And let's kick off with something that's, it seems very simple, but actually is a little more complicated when you dig into it, collaboration. We talk collaboration all the time. It's embedded in design build, but it's easy to talk about, little harder to do. And for some people, they may be saying, I'm new to this. What do you mean? I collaborate with my team members all the time. Talk to us about how on real projects. What separates teams that do truly collaborate. From those that just think they do,

Virginia McAllister  02:43

you are right. We do talk about collaboration a lot, and I think we hear from many, many design build teams that, oh, yeah, we're super collaborative. We let the architects talk to the owners. And one of the best examples I can give you of the kind of the essence of two collaboration is when everyone's in the room together, and you're going through and you're solving problems together. We were working on a convention center hotel in Denver, and we had this really great superintendent who had just done an insanely difficult project in the mountains, and we were going over some design options, and he said, Well, what if we did x, y and z, because that would be really good. It would not only save us money, but it would give us a better view from the building to the mountains. And the designer, from the architect side, almost fell off his chair because he had not been in a design build meeting where superintendent had a voice and was comfortable enough to actually speak. And I know that seems insane, because superintendents talk all the time, right? But to step into a problem and solve it by using both construction means methodology and design is uncomfortable for many people. And I've talked to other contractors who have said, I don't want to go to design meetings. I don't care what the design is. I just want to build it. And so the beauty of design build is that we're bringing together many people with many, many, many different perspectives, and we have to be open to understanding what they're bringing to the table, as well as open to listening and creating safe spaces for people to bring up their ideas. And I think this will become even more important as we move into the next generation of design, builders and contractors, architects, engineers, sub consultants and subcontractors. I think one of the most important things about what we're trying to do is we are, in a way, radically transforming our industry. We are saying that what happened in the past isn't good enough, and that the opportunity where we actually bring people's expertise together in an open environment and they can be heard makes. Makes the project better. It makes it more efficient, because people are getting information when they need it, and it allows us to actually, maybe even start to have work life equilibrium. I'd like to use, not balance, but I think that that's really, really important, that what we're doing isn't just sitting in room and talking. We are exchanging ideas, listening and building on people's expertise.

05:24

Well, what is left?

Speaker 1  05:26

Madam Chairwoman has said it all, but I will speak from the perspective of what I see in some of our project award submissions. And we all know that those projects are the best of the best, because even to apply, it has to be a very successful project, but everything Virginia said, I agree with, and that shows up in a project's award submission in two areas, I think, effective communication and trust. They have developed that safe space where all of the views are valued. They have aligned early in the project so that they agree on how they're going to communicate how they're going to have tough conversations, and they don't shy away from those things. So there's a trust element that we can have these difficult conversations, and there is a mechanism to communicate them. So I think that is really just a summary of what Virginia already said, and I agree 100% and that's what we see when we look at those award winning projects that trust and communication.

Erin Looney  06:23

So another really popular topic with us, and I can show you this in the numbers. Anytime we talk about this, people really want to read it. They want to listen to it, is our FMI studies. So the most recent one, which we covered on our February episode last year, IT projects design build to account for nearly half, 47% of all construction spending by 2028 which is now only two years away. So what does that level of growth mean for DBIA? Because that's really big.

Virginia McAllister  06:52

I think what's essential to this is that this is actually relatively similar information that we've had for the last six or seven years. Is the amount of spending going into design, build, and so we have been consciously building and trying to prepare the industry for what is going on. And one of the big pushes is realigning all our regions and making sure they all have the same message, message, and making sure they all have the same education. There's going to be a lot of people doing design build who have never done design build before. So there's going to be owners who've built buildings, contractors who've built buildings, architects and engineers who have design buildings. And the difference between executing a design bid building and a design build building is extraordinary, and hopefully, especially in the results you can get from it. But it goes back to that collaboration, and so we have had a gigantic push recently to make sure that we're collaborating with all of our industry partners. So the AIA, AGC, and trying to get the education out in Colorado, we did a co project presentation with AIA, and we had 50 people there. And a lot of what we're trying to do is just get out there that we have education that will help everyone deliver design, build better. One of the interesting things I get pushed back on a lot from architects is, well, you say 48% of construction spending, but I don't see it in my industry. And so when I think we need to be very honest about that number, because it actually a lot of that is water, wastewater, which is excels in design, build, transportation, which excels in design, build, those are gigantic, multi billion dollar projects. But what is going to happen is the federal government is going to use design build, and progressive design build, I'm not sure if it's exclusively, but a lot more than they have in the past. And so now all of a sudden, you've got federal money with people who haven't done design build as the owner, and then bringing on teams so they may not know how to pick the best team. They may not know how to put the project together correctly. They may not know how to do the RFP correctly. And so we are in a huge push try to get all that information out to people so they know that we are a resource for them, so they can do design build done right, and not just change their contract language from design bid build to design, build which I've actually seen, who literally just changed the words in their contract. So there's a huge amount to do. And I think, you know, at least from my perspective, a lot of trying to do is let people know that we were here. I feel like working. Here's the who, and that we have resources to help people know what the main best means and methods to deliver design build are, and that we as an industry can hold our teaming partners to account for best practices. So when they start veering off the rails, which happens, sometimes, the team can raise their hand to say, hey, let's re assess what we're doing. Let's get back on track. So I. Think that is the response that we are putting together, but also the importance and the essential importance of really understanding design built up, right?

Speaker 2  10:08

I think that what's really important for DBIA is to remember our mission and who we are and what makes us different from the other industry organizations. And when I talk to the other industry organizations that Virginia mentioned, AIA ACC and make sure they understand that our mission is to ensure success for the project in the team, and that when design build is chosen as a delivery method that is executed well, thus design build done right, that our mission is not to say every project should be design build. So we're very distinct in that we are focused on the how to of design build, and as design build grows and evolves, we have to stay laser focused on our mission of making sure we keep track of the trends and the evolution of design build, because it's going to continually evolve. The single point of responsibility contract won't change, but elements of how to elevate the process for more optimal outcomes will evolve as technology evolves, as new ways to collaborate evolve, and as we work with the other industry players, the other organizations, we need to make sure that we don't start to tighten the focus of what we're doing. We need to make sure that all these organizations understand that we are not competitors. We complement what they do. We have one singular focus, design, build done right? And we want to make sure that we remain that center of expertise, because that is, historically what we focused on, design build was a much smaller percentage. It wasn't as much interest from the other industry organizations as it approaches half of construction spending. Everybody's interested. So what we don't want in industry is lots of people developing how tos and best practices, which will only serve to confuse what we have that I believe is very valuable to industry is a very diverse membership and represents the entire design build team, and every product we develop takes into account the perspective of all of those players, which means that we are able to produce best practices that ensure that success, whole team success and project success. So I think as it grows, we stay laser focused, and that the other industry players understand that we've got one single, laser focused you've

Virginia McAllister  12:36

been talking about design build done right, which we know in this room is at the core of dbias work, and hopefully our certified professionals are members, and everybody also knows that, but that doesn't mean they know everything about it. Design, build, done right without tangible evidence is just just another buzzword, right? But there has been a real appetite across the industry for very honest conversations, not just about what goes well, which you've both been talking about, but also when things go wrong. We saw this in November in Las Vegas at the annual conference. There was a design, built, done wrong session that was incredibly popular. So we know people want to see and they don't want to put people on blast. I think that tends to be the hesitation is, why do we want to talk about when we mess it up? But people want to see that honesty, and they want to see what happens when you do have a hiccup. So can you guys talk a little about where projects most commonly start to go off track? I think the more we talk about design, build done wrong, the more we normalize that it's okay, as long as you're learning from it, where I have first hand experience. Unfortunately, some projects that didn't go well. Quite a bit of it had to do with, you know, starting with the owner, who did a competitive best and final offer, GMP, design, build process. And then when the project started, didn't understand that they had literally bought a project that they had no input in, because they did a best and final offer. And the frustration from the entire team on that is very, very, very palpable. The owner was upset because they couldn't change anything. The architect was upset because we were being asked to redesign over and over and over again, not understanding it wasn't a progressive design build project. So I think, you know, there's that kind of fundamental misunderstanding. And we've seen procurements where the owner hired an owner's rep who did a phenomenal job writing a beautiful, beautiful RFP, and no one on the owner's side was trained, and the clients getting maybe 60% out of the project that they should be because they didn't understand the process. And so I think again, going back, owners have to be educated. Partially because they need to know when the team is going off the rails. The second place that I see this often happen on projects that I've been involved with is just because it's the same team doesn't mean they're going to end up with the same outcome. So if I join contractor a with architect B and put them together, and we have wildly, phenomenally successful project, even in that same market. If I do contractor a and contractor B, but I change the teams, I can have a very poor outcome. And so it's not just the companies themselves being part of DBIA and participating. It is the individual people who are leading the projects and how they do it, and whether they just fall back on to design bid build mentality in which the design team is just a subcontractor to the contractor. And I've had situations where I've actually had a design build superintendent tell me that I didn't have a choice in the color of the building because he didn't want to do a mock up, and I actually had to call the VP of that kind. This is a gigantic construction company, but this is where understanding design, build done right best practices and having collaboration and having trust and respect in a project are the most fundamental thing. So my project manager didn't say anything to me until after the building already got painted the wrong color because the superintendent wouldn't do the mock up, and so, because he's like, we're too big of a rush. And so just it was, it was just an unfortunate thing, but it was, was his last project in his career, and he came from design bid build and was put into a design build project with zero training. And my project manager also didn't feel comfortable that they had a voice that they could say, hey, there's a problem here. And so I think this is a cultural thing where we have to have safe places for people to be able to say, Hey, this is actually installed incorrectly, or this is not the right spec. And you know, we have other projects where the contractor just starts giving us submittals and they're all wrong, and the team is afraid of the contractor, and so they start reviewing them, as opposed to saying, hey, stop, stop, stop. This doesn't meet the spec. And I've seen this as we do some owner's rough work too, and I've seen it where the client accepts substitutions without actually going through the process of accepting substitutions. And then there's a ripple effect, because whatever they accepted, they didn't understand, didn't fit with the rest of the system. There are so many places for projects to go off the rails, and so the project teams that actually succeed in the end, where everyone is whole, the client gets an outstanding project, etc. Are when, when things start going off the rails, people raise their hand and say, hey, hey, hey, we need to stop we need to figure this out. And there's me stop construction, but it means stop doing what we're doing because it's not working.

Erin Looney  17:57

I would love to believe, and I'm sure you didn't, because you're a decent person, that you handed a roller and paint to the superintendent and said, Have fun. That's what I would like to do.

Speaker 3  18:08

I would have liked to have done that, because every time I drive out of the building, it makes me sad. Oh, it's still the wrong color.

Erin Looney  18:13

It is still wrong. You know, a lot of what you were just talking about has to do with knowing what those best practices are, and knowing what design build done right looks like. And one of the biggest pieces of DBIA, we are an institute, is education. So let's talk about as if you didn't just illustrate it, let's talk a little more about how education and certification are so important to design build, and particularly with first time owners entering the space.

Virginia McAllister  18:43

Absolutely, I think it's essential. And we're working on an update right now to our design Integration Manager course. And then we're actually rolling out two new courses, owner advisor and progressive design build, which is unbelievably timely, especially in the DoD right now they are going full bore ahead on progressive design build, and it scares me a little bit, because I've seen projects go off the rails when it's a design build project and the owner doesn't know what they're doing, but when the entire team is doing it for the first time together, and going through the process of programming and concept and coming up with the budget collaboratively, etc. I think it can be very scary for people. And so that's why we four years ago, four plus years ago, we decided that we also DBIA needed to own progressive design build. So there are other people out there that are trying to also define it, but our work is actually based on real research, and there's ongoing research on progressive design build, why projects are really succeeding. What we. Weaknesses are on the ones that don't. And I think that what we're doing is, even though it's one of the older ways to build Gothic cathedrals were designed, built, and I can do a whole session on that, because I know a lot about it,

Erin Looney  20:13

but you put out there,

Virginia McAllister  20:16

what we are proposing is a radical transformation in how projects get delivered. And we really are not just making stuff up. This is based on actual research and best practices, and there's lots of research. Keith Molinar did a really great research a little while ago showing that the teams that actually a true collaboration succeed blindingly better than teams that are just okay or that have conflict. And, you know, I think that especially with the next generations coming up, they're in this weird mixture of being really collaborative but also not very communicative. And so we have, we have a lot to do as an industry to break the chains of well, this is what we've always done. It to what if, and if we can start really looking at our work from what if we actually only did 1700 of the 3500 submittals. I had a project. The project manager sat down with the owner and said, What do you want to see? And the owner picked out 17 140 things that he wanted to see, and the other 1700 went through the team and went through. And that project was done at a very, very difficult time, and we ended up two months early and a million under budget. And that is the kind of thinking where, you know, the contractor collaborated with the owner to say, what do you really need to look at? And I've had other projects where it's gone the exact opposite way, and that can definitely pull things down, but the education and people actually having the same voice is truly essential to the transformation that we in our industry, because we're not going to have the next generation. They're not going to work 60 hours a week like we did when I was an intern. 60 was the minimum. And so there's two impacts by that. One is in three years, I had five years of experience. And secondly, I literally didn't have a life the first 20 years, right? Like I worked all the time and so but that's what I was talking about, that the opportunity for equilibrium. It really does mean that we have to do things in a radically different way. We need to bring our sub contractors on earlier, but we need to educate them, because what I have seen from talking to a bunch of different subcontractors is they didn't understand that they were going to have to put aside funds to actually participate in design. A lot of them are just like, don't care. Just show me what to build and I'll build it right? But there's a whole new group that are like, please call me during design and engineering the glass guy, I can save you millions of dollars. So that is where our education is so essential, because it's through the entire team. So those subcontractors and the sub consultants that show up on the project at 90% design, all of a sudden, everything has to change. We have to stop doing that, and that's what design build can do.

Speaker 1  23:18

You briefly touched on older advisors. I think the other thing that touches on education that's important is we do have to acknowledge that we're not going to get every single person in the industry educated and certified, but people need to acknowledge when they need that third party support, like an owner advisor, because there are new owners coming into the design build arena because of the growth of design build. You know, it's natural. It's growing because new owners are coming. Some will be doing one design build project. You know, I'm project manager for my church. My church doesn't build every day, right? You know, it's design build, but they need a guidance. Why is this contract like that? Why aren't we meeting with all these individual trades separately 15 years ago, when we did the expansion we did. So I think that the owner, advisor, education in that whole area is critically important, because as design build grows and more people use it, we need more of those qualified people that understand advising in this collaborative environment is different than advising in a more adversarial design bid build, and they're going to be needed to guide those new owners through the process, because it's unrealistic to think that every single person is going to take the workshop and get

24:33

certified, plus what we have left to do that's exactly right, exactly right.

Virginia McAllister  24:39

And this also came up when Tom Foley was standing on the new allowing of design build in New York. He methodically went through and trained his staff. And the bigger issue was that design build had not been practiced extensively on the East Coast, and so you're asking people to jump from not doing it, to jump into a billion dollar project. And. And so one of the criteria we had for that was to have them trained, but also that the team had to have executed a similar project type together, even if it wasn't in a design, build contract vehicle they had already like and it wasn't just the companies, it was the actual individual people had actually worked together. So there was a lot of movement during covid. And so we've seen a lot of teams where, yeah, you know, I work with Lisa on that project when she was at Joe's company, right? And so looking at the individual people as well, making sure that they have worked together, can also help get over the hump of, well, we've never done design build. How can we do it?

Erin Looney  25:40

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Erin Looney  26:07

we've been talking about bringing people in and this utopia of everyone being certified and being members, but we can't hit everyone, yeah, but we can expand access. DBIA has made some changes to do that, to expand access, to bring more people into our organization. So Lisa, this one starts with you. Can you walk us through what those changes are, and then talk about why it matters.

Speaker 1  26:32

The most major change we made was our membership structure, and the change was intended not to bring in more revenue for membership. You know, we are nonprofit. We do need money to reinvest in the organization, but our goal with our membership change was to expand access to the tools and resources that we have here at DBIA. So I am very thrilled to say that in a year's time, we went from about 9000 members to 23,000 members because we removed barriers to access by saying that our industry partner firm members the companies that join DBIA, they can have as many individuals within their agencies or firms join DBIA beyond a membership roster as they'd like. Previously, they had a certain number of slots they could fill, you know, anywhere between two and 10 slots, depending on the type of firm you were and thinking through what the organization is is here to achieve, which is design build done right for those that choose to engage in design build to enhance project outcomes and to make a better use of taxpayer dollars, obviously, by opening it up to everyone, we are reaching people that maybe aren't necessarily doing design build now, but they See the evolution and they can get a head start on understanding those trends, we're also making sure that the resources we have are communicated to a broader population, as opposed to just a small subset of people that are on our contact list. Right there are busy people I can't rely on Virginia to make sure that everybody in her firm knows about the new resource we have. We want them to have that information directly. And the other thing that's really important about this change is that there is power in numbers, design, build for the public sector doesn't just happen. You need legislative authority. And as an organization, while we do not have a political action committee and our advocacy is focused more on education, not necessarily lobbying. We do need to demonstrate critical mass when we talk to owners and legislators about the value of design build. So there's power in that number, and it just expands our reach. So our goal is to make sure that our resources are accessible to as many people as possible, not that we make an extra dollar, because we charge an extra $300 to have someone on the roster, because our goal is that that next project that they work on is done well, and that people on that project, even if they didn't sit in the classroom or get certified, they can pick up an eight page primer and read what the best practices are. They can have access to information that at least makes them knowledgeable at a surface level. On this is what I know the right questions to ask now, in

Virginia McAllister  29:08

support of that, one of the things that we've seen in the last, I don't know, seven or eight years, is that there was a rather wide diversity of how all of the regions and then the sub chapters were actually working, and we're taking the education and the outreach to the country in I can't even believe we did this. In one year, the board and the staff here at DBIA assessed all of the regions, figured out who was healthy, who was not healthy. We are in the process of making sure everyone has the right documentation, et cetera, et cetera. But the other thing that we're doing is we're actually creating a lot of base education material that can be used by the regions for outreach, so that we're actually getting the same message out across the country. And depending on the region you're in, in California, design, build and progressive are runaway freight train. Gosh, they are just going in Colorado. We use design build quite a lot, but it's actually a very different process, and so you don't know how the message is being delivered differently until you actually start talking to people from all over the country. We have a whole new set of staff for this. So we've got an overall leader, and then we've got regional direct leaders, and the whole idea behind that is to have a consistent message across the country, so that it's clear that everyone who's participating in this is part of the same organization, the same goals and the same approach,

Speaker 1  30:35

but not a one size fits all approach for DBIA national, and that's something we discovered and validated over the last year, and assessing each region what they need in terms of support and resources. In California is very different than what's needed in Alabama. Legislative authority differs across the country. Engagement differs across the country. Critical Mass differs. New York City is a highly concentrated area with hundreds of 1000s of people, but then you have Wyoming, which is not

Speaker 3  31:07

too concentrated.

Speaker 1  31:11

So this new region relations team, and in this structure of having staff dedicated to regions really allows us to focus on the individual needs of all 14 regions, and I think that is a benefit for DBIA. Many organizations in this space have hundreds of regions and chapters. Our structure is 14 regions report up. The National chapters are under the region. So we have an opportunity to take 14 regions and really assess what's different about them. Where do they need the most support, and what's nuanced? And I think that that's very exciting.

Erin Looney  31:49

One of the most popular episodes of this show since I've been here in 2023 was about some legislation in California that allowed PDB to be used more broadly. That episode still gets downloaded. And I think what is happening with the regions might be easily explained by they want to know what to do. Where they are. They're seeing the success in California. And now, what does that look like? Like you said, in Alabama, what does that look like in Florida? Is it just changing the name of it so that it's palatable? And I think that episode was so engaging because it was a success story. The next step would have been, well, that won't work here. What do we do?

Virginia McAllister  32:29

I think that's really essential, because there are extreme nuances to how design build can be implemented. So if you work for a city that requires X, you really have to work with them to figure out, how can you do design build when x negates design build, right? And quite frankly, it comes back to trust. So for example, if you have to have three bids on everything, you have to pick the low bid that doesn't actually work for design build, because you actually have to tie up some of your sub contractors during the procurement process, right? And so how does the client feel that they're getting the best use of their money? And so, you know, having open books and making and hitting the budget shows that you're managing their money faithfully, but it's this old design bid build mentality, where I'd have to have three bids on every single nut and bolt, and you really don't, because in design build, it is the entire process in and of itself. It's not these individual little items. I think that makes that distinction. And understanding how design build is regulated in your environment really is one of the strengths the regions can help businesses, design, build, teams, execute design, build better and make sure that the project gets everything out of the money that they possibly can.

Erin Looney  33:50

So let's stay with you for a second. Virginia, you're stepping into your role as the DBIA national board chair. You're officially in that role. What's the issue or the idea that really gets you excited about doing this work this year.

Virginia McAllister  34:03

I actually have a couple. So the the first one is the progressive design build. So when I was at the Sammy Small Business Conference, every DoD was like, we're just going to do design build, right? And so it excites me and it terrifies me, because I think the best intentions of mice and men, Sue go asunder. It is innovative, and it can really deliver the best projects for the money for the client, especially in federal contracting. Because one of our biggest issues is that when we finally get to a project, and this happens a little more in the DOI but the procurement is 10 years old, so the program of requirements is 10 years old. Science doesn't stop, right? So if I'm doing a scientific project, I'm now working on something that's 10 years old, so the day when I start that project, it's wrong. So the beauty of progressive design build is that it's building on the most current, future forward aspects of our industry, and will help our clients get the most. Of the budgets they have. The scary part is that they don't really know what they're going to get until they collaborate and get through the whole thing. My second really big

Erin Looney  35:07

before you move to that, and I have a question that may set us up for another episode, which is, you're talking about things being essentially outdated, and with the growth of technology, just thinking of AI, of course, I suspect that makes a difference. If a project is over several years that this technology is moving at lightning speed and without the ability to adjust, you're then stuck with old tech, old ways of doing things, old processes. Is that something you guys are thinking about when you're working on projects. I think

Virginia McAllister  35:37

we're always thinking about it. I think the hardest thing to think about, which is it's almost an oxymoron. So we were doing some work at the NOAA headquarters, and we had to redo ups for the server rooms. And I was like, Well, why aren't they getting hotter? Well, they got hotter, and I mean, a lot hotter because computers shrank. They put more in, she just added more in the racks, right? So there are results of technology that cannot be intuited, because you wouldn't have thought, Oh, well, if computers are getting smaller, they're going to be hotter, and they're going to be hotter, and then I'm going to put more in there, right? So there's it was really, I mean, I'm sure an IT person could have thought of that, but I don't think engineers would have thought about that, you know, 20 years ago. So I think one of the things that design build does allow us to do is to try to create opportunity for some capacity in our projects, especially related to it. So the it was always as small as they can be, maybe they should be a little bigger. Maybe there should be a little bit more capacity for power, because clearly that is going to be an issue. But I also slightly against industry. I do believe that people are still the fundamental driver, especially architects and engineers, of how to do a project. I think you could probably a computer. Could probably do a Walmart, because there isn't a whole lot in there that is that specific, but a Walmart in Alabama is not the same as a Walmart in North Dakota, and I think that's where there's a misunderstanding that AI can do everything for us. I do think that that will change things. I don't know that we can actually tell what's going to happen, but I do think that it gives us the opportunity to be more flexible in our design and not have everything so tight down that I can't change anything. So, you know, maybe doing offices with operable walls so that I can readjustice my employees change, society changes, and that's a little bit more expensive up front, but it will probably save you a lot of money in the end. So it's, it's hard because you're, it's almost like you're designing a Ferrari with a Volkswagen budget, because you're looking at the future and you need this thing

Erin Looney  37:45

that's perfect. That's how I live.

37:50

I'm more of a citron. So

Erin Looney  37:52

what was the second issue? I didn't mean to derail you.

Virginia McAllister  37:54

So my second one, when I was up in Wyoming a year ago, doing a presentation for DBIA, for the state of Wyoming. I met a lot of subcontractors, and they were excited about design build, but were super frustrated because they didn't understand that they were going to have to participate in design. And at our Rocky Mountain region members meeting last month, I sat at a table follow sub contractors, and they're like, We want to get in right now. We want to be there at the design phase, right so there's a very wide range of the people that actually build our buildings, the people that supply the glass, that do the masonry, that install the steel, that don't understand the design build process, and haven't understood it in a way that they can build in the time to sit and design meetings. Because, you know, a lot of these businesses are small businesses, and they just want to show up and do exactly what they're told to do. So that was kind of what I was talking about with this radical transformation, is having the whole team really think what sub contractors and sub consultants do we need to bring in earlier? So like, for example, the IT people always get brought in right at the end. So really expensive. They don't want to hit the owner with that too early. But but getting them in much earlier would allow us to design raceway systems, etc, for them to go through the building and not have to spend a whole bunch of time coordinating with everyone else. Security is another thing is getting those people in really early, like during the RFP phase, because they can help us design more efficient buildings in terms of safety, security, blast protection, etc. And those are really, really expensive parts of a building. And for some reason, we tend to let all of those subcontractors, sub consultants like hang out in the ether until we need them. So I think really trying to get the collaboration. But my goal is to try to get more sub contractors involved and educated so they can understand so we. And they can be raising their hand at the right time during a procurement

Erin Looney  40:03

so let's do a little speculation for the final question here. Every year DBIA puts out new resources, we update our tools, we tweak our guidance. What does this year look like in terms of resources, tools and guidance that DBIA is going to deliver to help owners and practitioners, everybody, some of the people you were talking about, the owners, the owner advisors, to help all of these people put design build done right into practice, more consistently and better

Virginia McAllister  40:31

the three courses I mentioned earlier. So the design Integration Manager, the owner advisor, and then the progressive design build, those are all super key elements to a successful design build project. And I'll take the design Integration Manager for an example. So almost two years ago, we did a new design integration manual, and everyone's like, Oh my god, I can't believe one person can do all this Well, oftentimes one person cannot do all of it. But the bigger issue, and the reason that we did it the way we did it, is that whole team needs to understand what has to happen when, when is the best time to do your I'll use the BIM pxp, when is best time to do that actually during procurement, so that your whole team knows what they're bidding to do. The model. If you do that after you've already been awarded the project, you may not get everything that you actually need, right? So that's just one example of something that design integration manager is in charge of, leading, not doing. And so there are still design builders who are reticent to actually identify that position as a person like our owners won't let us have any more overhead. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So the other reason that the manual is really helpful is the team can then look at everything that has to happen in there, and actually, as a collaborative team, decide who is going to really be in charge of these things and make sure all those things are happening. Because while they may not be important, the contractor, you know, I'm going to say he doesn't care about the pxp, but he totally cares about the pxb. The contractor may not care about the owner's review. They just that's your job, right? Well, somebody actually has to manage that, and somebody has to raise their hand if the owner's review isn't coming in at the right time, the right schedule, or they're not being efficient about it. You know, you get five of the same comment they're not managing, etc. So that subtle management, which is neither really the contractor's job nor the architect's job, is that job that's in that manual that will help people deliver projects better. To me, those are the three big things with the government jumping into progressive design build, we have to, I don't know somebody had a crystal ball, because when we started this five or six years ago, it wasn't a big deal, and now it is probably the biggest opportunity that we have as an industry to actually start advancing the whole industry into a new paradigm of delivering projects. So that is where I am so excited what we're doing and looking at a very bright future for our industry, the one I would

Speaker 1  43:04

add to the list that I think is critical is we must find a way to be better at expanding our education to students that are in the universities in the construction management, architectural, engineering schools. DBIA does have a program whereby we can incorporate our core curriculum, but it has not been our most successful program. We've only scratched the surface of getting this education into the hands of the future leaders of the industry. I think that's critical. We do all this work if they don't come out of college ready to jump into industry with an understanding of the growth of design build and what it means and how it differs, then it's going to set us back ways. And it's been a challenge because curriculum is not easy to change. University faculty are stretched for time. They don't have time to figure out how to incorporate it.

Virginia McAllister  44:01

And I think if anyone took the time to go to the student presentations this year at national there was a group of students, the team that actually won, and I was sitting with a friend of mine. I'm like, I need to hire.

Erin Looney  44:14

They would love to hear that.

Virginia McAllister  44:17

Really, whoever was teaching them actually truly understood integrated, collaborative design build. And that was Cal Poly. That was Cal Poly. And I just, I literally almost saw from chair. It was so good and but it was also it gave me so much hope, because these kids really got the importance of schedule and the budget and resilience and sustainability. It was absolutely a thing of beauty and but that is, I think, what Lisa talking about is that that we have to get that into all of the war, yeah, all of the industry education, because that is what will also help us really transform what we're doing and really deliver excellence in every. Project that we do, and

Erin Looney  45:00

I'm going to call that the last word, okay, going to thank you both Virginia and Lisa for coming into the influx studio. It is not a design build project. Maybe it should be many thanks to Virginia, McAllister, dbias 2026, national board chair and DBIA Executive Director and CEO Lisa Washington for helping us kick off the year with the thoughtful look at what's ahead for design, build and for DBIA. Now these annual conversations with our board chair a chance to step back and look at, you know, big picture, where the industry is headed, what's changing, what's accelerating, and where DBIA can make the biggest impact in the industry in the next 12 months, from education and certification to progressive design build, regional engagement and new legislation. This episode just kind of lays out the priorities that will shape 2026 as always. You can find resources, tools and upcoming education@dbia.org and in the show notes. And if you enjoyed this conversation, make sure you subscribe to the design build delivers podcast brought to you by our cons and Autodesk Platinum Partner, Learn more at our cons.us/dbia. I am Erin Looney, and as always, thanks for listening. You.